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Author Topic: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...  (Read 6736 times)

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RGlideKid

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As the appointed route developer for the upcoming Get Together in Eureka Springs, I'm trying hard to understand what makes our Boom Boxes work (called BB hereafter) and specifically, how and why our navigation system does what it does. 
Up until now, I've questioned whether we will ever fully understand how the BB nav works, and sometimes I wonder if the nav portion will ever work the way we want it to. 
Let's face it.  It's easy to blame the Rushmore project and then give up trying to get the darn nav system to do what we want, but it's tougher to actually sit down, do the research on-line, and then troubleshoot and war game it to figure the infernal thing out.

I have a theory about our BB's and want to sound it off on you guys.  My theory concerns the topics of "avoidances" and "preferences" in the nav system, and then the difference between the two types of routes we will use with the system.

The first type of route is what I would call "navigating on the fly" (NOF for short).  This is where you're out running around on the bike, and then decide you want to go to the nearest Red Lobster or Lowe's, or whatever, so you let the nav system search for the location, and then route it for you.
The second type of route is one you define by means of some type of GPS software, where you create the route from scratch and then import it into your BB.  I'll call that type a GPX route for short.  Can you tell I have a military background with all these acronyms?   :'(

If you think about it, what's the difference between these two types of routes?  The first is, with NOF navigating, you're letting the BB decide how to get you from point A to B, and the other main difference is the NOF has no user defined waypoints (WP's) in the route, only a starting and ending point. 

Why is that important?  Well, this is where my theory about the "avoidances" and "preferences" settings come into play, and here's what I'm thinking:

Since the NOF style route is BB designed and has only a starting and ending point, the BB is free to take you where it wants to in order to get you to that Red Lobster.  And this (I think) is where "avoidances" and "preferences" have the majority of the effect on the route you take. 
Think about it...if you import a GPX route, you are in effect telling the BB exactly where you want to go, and each turn that's involved, and this is all done with the WP's you've chosen.
But since the NOF route has no waypoints, then you you only get to define the type of roads you want to ride on to get to that Red Lobster by selecting maybe the "scenic" route, or the "fastest" route, or whatever preference you like best.  And in the meantime, you can choose to avoid "interstates" or "toll roads" or whatever by the use of avoidances.  My theory is that this is how you get to have any input at all into how a NOF type route is created.

Conversely, with a GPX route, you may have designated that you didn't want to go on a toll road (in the avoidances section), but when you devised the route, you decided had no choice in a certain area but to use a toll road, and so you input the WP's to do that, and it will do that then in spite of your choice of avoidances.  You could also choose not to go on a scenic road that is readily available to get to your GPX destination, but rather you want to take the fastest road along your route, and again, the system will follow your WP's instead of your choice of preferences.

So why does the darn BB continue to take us where we didn't choose to go with our GPX file?  My theory here is that we; 1) didn't use enough WP's in developing our route;  and/or 2) we didn't place enough of them in busy routes with lots of turns (like in a city), and/or 3) we didn't zoom in and check our exact placement of each WP well enough as we generated our route.

We can control #3 above by reviewing our route closely before saving it, but as far as #1 and 2 above go, how do we know we've used enough waypoints, or that we've placed them in the right spots?
I figure the only way to do that is by trial and error.  Try adding more WP's to the complicated areas of your route, and see if it helps to "force" the BB into regurgitating your route exactly as you originally devised it.  I think you'll find it will.

Look at the jpg below.  The left side shows a basic route running through the city, with just enough waypoints that the route looks like a sure thing...right?  But all of us know that by the time our BB imports it and we start to drive it, we could end up taking turns where we didn't want to or going on streets we didn't want to.
Now look at the right hand map.  Notice I've placed WP's before and after each turn?  My theory is that this "forces" the BB nav system to take a turn and stay on that street until you come to the next turn.  After all, WP's are just latitude and longitude coordinates that the BB must take you through.  Heck, I might even add an extra WP between WP's 3 & 4 or between 7 & 8 if I felt the straight stretches were too long...just to make sure that I stayed on that road all the way to the next turn.

Isn't this redundant and extra work?  Yes, but I can tell you that this system works, whereas if I devise a GPX route that looks like the left hand map, I'll be going through Timbuktu to get where I want to go.  And it takes very little time to add a few more WP's...certainly a lot less time and hassle than to head down the wrong street in a bad neighborhood all the while trying to figure how to get back on the route.

I welcome your comments on this or any other BB nav subject.
 
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Harry
2017 Eureka Springs MITM Ride Chairman
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Glenncarp

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 07:09:29 PM »

Lots of thought and work in that post, awesome. This brings me back to my "I thought a GPX file was a GPX file" of last week.

This issue I have with HD ride planner is that when you add a waypoint, the bike takes you there before your destinatiion. I know, it is only a lat/long marking, this issue I have is that if you planned a 100 mile trip, and you had to add 6 waypoints, the ride only tell you time and ditance to next way point, so you don't really know total time or mileage. Plus, if you did not carefully study the placing of said waypoint, you may have placed it on wrong side of highway or off the road you are traveling. Not so bad when you and a buddy are traveling, but leading a group of 10 bikes....Wow.

The reason I like Google maps is that when you rearrange the route, it may add a waypoint secretly, but it is not put on the map or listed in the turn by turn guide.

Another issue is that in HD ride planner, if you plan the route and add 5 waypoints to get it the route you want, even if the route is completed and you remove one of the waypoints, it snaps the route back to where it wants it.

It looks like to me, with limited plating with it, that Tyre does the same, it lists the waypints in the turn guide.


Now, having said all that about HD ride planner, I did use it two weekends ago to go to West Palm. Since I was meettimg with a group, I used a start point from the map as I did not know the address, at the meet spot, I fired up my imported route, I guess since the address used as a start point was not exactly where we met (maybe 100 yard off) My GPS kept trying to guide me back to the start point set. Being anal and studying my route prior to the ride, I sut off the route on my GPS as I had it mostly memorized. About an huour into my trip, I was pissed because I wanted to know distance and time to destination. I pulled up route again nd noted that under the route in "Trips" the rout was listed with the start pint, via point 1 and 2 and the finish address. When I choose the finish address, the ride went as I had planned it. Guess there is a learning curve for me on the nre GPS coming from the handle bay mounted one on my '11 SEGRU.

Al in all, I am happy with the GPS on the '16 SERG, just would like a better ride planner (Would love to get Google to covert and be imported on my system} So that we as riders, can plan, import and follow cool routes without 5 waypoints needed on the route.
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fred786

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2017, 06:30:11 AM »

First, thanks for the great post as I continue to try and nail down how to get this whole thing to work.  I am presently in Florida vacationing from Canada with a couple buddies and using trip planner on a daily basis with some good and some real bad results.  We will be traveling to the Keys from Kissimmee area on Monday so proper routing is going to be important to us.  (we are going to take 17 over to 27 and down)
My question presently is this:  After creating the route in trip planner, importing it into the BB and selecting the route to begin the ride, the screen will display the route list with the start location, the series of waypoints, and the final destination.  Right from the start, should I select the finish destination?
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Glenncarp

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2017, 08:53:35 AM »

First, thanks for the great post as I continue to try and nail down how to get this whole thing to work.  I am presently in Florida vacationing from Canada with a couple buddies and using trip planner on a daily basis with some good and some real bad results.  We will be traveling to the Keys from Kissimmee area on Monday so proper routing is going to be important to us.  (we are going to take 17 over to 27 and down)
My question presently is this:  After creating the route in trip planner, importing it into the BB and selecting the route to begin the ride, the screen will display the route list with the start location, the series of waypoints, and the final destination.  Right from the start, should I select the finish destination?

I ran into same issue as I described above. Yes, you should select the final stop, if you select a via point, you route will stop when you get to that point. If you travel off of the calculated route, make sure you choose the end point again, if you chose the route from the start, the BB does not realize you are actually on the route and it will direct you to the start address.

Again, this is why I like Google maps as they dod not add the waypoint physically to your route.

Have a cold on for me at Sloppy Joes!
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RGlideKid

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2017, 09:49:53 AM »


1 - This issue I have with HD ride planner is that when you add a waypoint, the bike takes you there before your destinatiion. 

2 - ...issue I have is that if you planned a 100 mile trip, and you had to add 6 waypoints, the ride only tell you time and ditance to next way point, so you don't really know total time or mileage.

3 - Plus, if you did not carefully study the placing of said waypoint, you may have placed it on wrong side of highway or off the road you are traveling.

4 - Not so bad when you and a buddy are traveling, but leading a group of 10 bikes....Wow.

5 - ...it may add a waypoint secretly, but it is not put on the map or listed in the turn by turn guide.

6 - Another issue is that in HD ride planner, if you plan the route and add 5 waypoints to get it the route you want, even if the route is completed and you remove one of the waypoints, it snaps the route back to where it wants it.

7 - It looks like to me, with limited plating with it, that Tyre does the same, it lists the waypints in the turn guide.

8 - About an huour into my trip, I was pissed because I wanted to know distance and time to destination.

9 - I pulled up route again nd noted that under the route in "Trips" the rout was listed with the start pint, via point 1 and 2 and the finish address.

10 - When I choose the finish address, the ride went as I had planned it. Guess there is a learning curve for me on the nre GPS coming from the handle bay mounted one on my '11 SEGRU.


Genn, you had so many points I wanted to address that I quoted you and numbered those points, so here goes:
1 - I'm not sure exactly the problem you're having here, but WP's are supposed to take you to spots you wanted to drive thru on your way to your destination.  The nav system should take you thru each WP before it gets to your destination.

2 - another limitation of Ride Planner.  myrouteapp (the old TYRE) gives you more info than that.

3 - We've been stressing this for a long time.  ALWAYS  zoom in and view the placement of each waypoint!

4 - Tell me about it.  When I got my first GPX back in '07, it took me down some places I didn't want to go.  It took me one trip to figure out it had all be my fault!  Embarrassing!

5 - I don't know what you mean by it secretly adds a waypoint.  I never observed Ride Planner doing that, nor does myrouteapp.

6 - Well, the software has to "snap" the route back somewhere after you remove an intermediate WP.  The route must go on!  If you don't like where it re-drew the route, add another waypoint or two or three.  Whatever it takes to force the route to go where you want.

7 - myrouteapp lists the waypoints out to the left, yes.  And it gives you total mileage and time to that waypoint, and to every waypoint. 

8 - somewhere in your settings on the BB, you should have that menu feature.

9 - One thing I disliked about Ride Planner was the inability to give custom names to WP's if you want to.  my route app does that.

10 - When it comes to new tech, there will always be a learning curve!

Hope I helped somehow.

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Harry
2017 Eureka Springs MITM Ride Chairman
Check out my photo gallery at:  RGlideKid's Galleries at Bull Shoals Photography




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RGlideKid

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2017, 09:54:40 AM »

First, thanks for the great post as I continue to try and nail down how to get this whole thing to work.  I am presently in Florida vacationing from Canada with a couple buddies and using trip planner on a daily basis with some good and some real bad results.  We will be traveling to the Keys from Kissimmee area on Monday so proper routing is going to be important to us.  (we are going to take 17 over to 27 and down)
My question presently is this:  After creating the route in trip planner, importing it into the BB and selecting the route to begin the ride, the screen will display the route list with the start location, the series of waypoints, and the final destination.  Right from the start, should I select the finish destination?

I appreciate the comments!  Good luck and happy riding on your long adventure!

By "trip planner" I assume you mean the HD Ride Planner on their website? 
If you can watch this short video from your phone, it will explain what you should select:

 

If for some reason you can't get there from this link, search for Harley-Davidson '14-'16 Load GPX Route on youtube.

Hope this helps!
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Harry
2017 Eureka Springs MITM Ride Chairman
Check out my photo gallery at:  RGlideKid's Galleries at Bull Shoals Photography




2015 CVO RGU with V&H Power Pro Headers & 4" Monster Rounds & HD-SEPST
2007 Bushtec Turbo+2 Trailer

fred786

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2017, 03:48:48 PM »

Thanks very much, yes very helpful and I did mean Ride Planner.  We have put on 1,000 miles just this past week and will likely top that next week.  Weather down here has been just amazing for riding every day.
Fred
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RGlideKid

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2017, 05:01:17 PM »

Thanks very much, yes very helpful and I did mean Ride Planner.  We have put on 1,000 miles just this past week and will likely top that next week.  Weather down here has been just amazing for riding every day.
Fred

Glad I could help!
Ride safe and have an awesome trip!
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Harry
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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2017, 07:30:53 AM »

I appreciate the comments!  Good luck and happy riding on your long adventure!

By "trip planner" I assume you mean the HD Ride Planner on their website? 
If you can watch this short video from your phone, it will explain what you should select:

 

If for some reason you can't get there from this link, search for Harley-Davidson '14-'16 Load GPX Route on youtube.

Hope this helps!
I've had this bike for just over two years now and that has to be one of the better videos I've seen. Thanks for the link.  :2vrolijk_21:
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RGlideKid

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2017, 10:24:48 AM »

I've had this bike for just over two years now and that has to be one of the better videos I've seen. Thanks for the link.  :2vrolijk_21:

Thanks, Mike!
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Harry
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Check out my photo gallery at:  RGlideKid's Galleries at Bull Shoals Photography




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Glenncarp

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 04:43:43 PM »

I appreciate the comments!  Good luck and happy riding on your long adventure!

By "trip planner" I assume you mean the HD Ride Planner on their website? 
If you can watch this short video from your phone, it will explain what you should select:

 

If for some reason you can't get there from this link, search for Harley-Davidson '14-'16 Load GPX Route on youtube.

Hope this helps!

Wow, I was just going to post on my frustration yesterday on planing and importing a trip with a few  waypoints and not knowing which trip that was imported to choose. The video explained what I was doing wrong.

Thanks for the help.
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Glenncarp

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 04:50:56 PM »

Genn, you had so many points I wanted to address that I quoted you and numbered those points, so here goes:
1 - I'm not sure exactly the problem you're having here, but WP's are supposed to take you to spots you wanted to drive thru on your way to your destination.  The nav system should take you thru each WP before it gets to your destination.

2 - another limitation of Ride Planner.  myrouteapp (the old TYRE) gives you more info than that.

3 - We've been stressing this for a long time.  ALWAYS  zoom in and view the placement of each waypoint!

4 - Tell me about it.  When I got my first GPX back in '07, it took me down some places I didn't want to go.  It took me one trip to figure out it had all be my fault!  Embarrassing!

5 - I don't know what you mean by it secretly adds a waypoint.  I never observed Ride Planner doing that, nor does myrouteapp.

6 - Well, the software has to "snap" the route back somewhere after you remove an intermediate WP.  The route must go on!  If you don't like where it re-drew the route, add another waypoint or two or three.  Whatever it takes to force the route to go where you want.

7 - myrouteapp lists the waypoints out to the left, yes.  And it gives you total mileage and time to that waypoint, and to every waypoint. 

8 - somewhere in your settings on the BB, you should have that menu feature.

9 - One thing I disliked about Ride Planner was the inability to give custom names to WP's if you want to.  my route app does that.

10 - When it comes to new tech, there will always be a learning curve!

Hope I helped somehow.

Hey Harry,
I added a post to my original "I thought a GPX file was a GPX file" in where I asked you about Tyre. I add address of start point, then end point. I click "Add to itinerary" and the both show up in box to left. I then add waypoints and adjust the route. I add them to itinerary too and the appear in left side box. I am not able to then start the route on the map and drag it. Is there a secret to doing that once all stops are in my itinerary?

Thanks!
Glenn
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RGlideKid

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 05:34:43 PM »

Hey Harry,
I added a post to my original "I thought a GPX file was a GPX file" in where I asked you about Tyre. I add address of start point, then end point. I click "Add to itinerary" and the both show up in box to left. I then add waypoints and adjust the route. I add them to itinerary too and the appear in left side box. I am not able to then start the route on the map and drag it. Is there a secret to doing that once all stops are in my itinerary?

Thanks!
Glenn

Glenn,

If by itinerary, you mean your route (over on the left side of the web page), then maybe you are putting your destination in too early.

When I create a route that I'll import to my GPS, I enter a starting waypoint on the map and give it a custom name like "Hotel - Start".  From there I start moving the map to where I know my route will go and begin adding WP's (waypoints) as necessary/required.  At some point, I will get to my destination, where again I enter a waypoint and give it a name like "Finish".  Then I save the route, and I'm done.

I'm not following you when you say you're not able to start the route on the map and then drag it.  Are you talking about doing that on the BB screen on your bike, or on your computer at home.  If you want, PM me and we can exchange cell numbers.  I'm thinking you already know more than me about MRA, or I'm just not understanding your question!
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Harry
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Check out my photo gallery at:  RGlideKid's Galleries at Bull Shoals Photography




2015 CVO RGU with V&H Power Pro Headers & 4" Monster Rounds & HD-SEPST
2007 Bushtec Turbo+2 Trailer

fred786

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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2018, 05:37:47 AM »

Sorry but just bringing back an old threat.  I get the building of routes and the import process but my question is from the home page on the Boom Box and through the settings menu on the Nav, when using a custom route you have built, what are you selecting for your route settings to make it follow your custom route in general settings and second, in avoidances.
Please tell me the 19's will have better Nav software!  It has now been 5yrs with the same old, same old.
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Re: BoomBox Navigation, GPX files, and my thoughts on creating routes...
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 05:44:38 PM »

The easy way I have found to make sure it stays on my route is to put a waypoint just after each turn onto a new road.

When I am following a route that I built I always have avoid HWY'S toll's and dirt.
The rest don't seem to matter much.






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