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[Steve Cole]

Any good TTS tuners in Southern California anybody can vouch for??

Harry

Thomason Racing
Torrance, CA 310-704-4544

He can be hard to get ahold of but leave a message and he will call you back. He races HD's and rides them as well so he can handle most anything you need but he is a one man band.

Greenrock Performance
1473 Tower Square    
Ventura    CA    USA    805-639-3021

A small shop and the owner/tuner is Bill


The Auto tune name has been beat to death and IMHO used improperly as NONE of the systems today, Auto Tune. All require some interaction between a laptop and the ECM regardless of what anyone says.

[DtyHarry]

Thanks, every hear of a place called the "Cycle Doctor" in Costa Mesa?  The are apparently one of the TTS dealers...

[Steve Cole]

Yes, that's Jeff Gates and he does nice work too. So if your close to him give him a call.

[Midnight Rider]

Couldn't Harley Davidson theoretically also claim that their ECM also does auto tune as well.  It adjust fuel and if I am not mistaken timing as the bike is being ridden as well once it goes into closed loop.  Using the sensors it reads it adjust according to the parameters set inside it adjusts accordingly.  This in turn is why we flash a new map to give it better figures to run better and cooler.  If you want to pass a California emission test you would give a different map but your engine would run completely different and be hotter.  So to get to the point as as brought up in many threads here auto tune is just vocabulary used for selling a product.  Your ECM on your car in essence auto tunes as you drive the O2 sensors are always fluctuating from rich to lean rich to lean once in closed loop to keep air fuel ratio at their predetermined setting.   In the 80's remember people would buy a chip or prom to put in their cars.  Basically we are building one just for our specific bike and flashing it our ECM.  It's more precise and with the TTS you can really dial it in.   I could be way off the mark here but hope I am a little close. 

Todd

Yes, the stock ECM will "autotune" within the parameters set.  It's all about the parameters, to put it loosely.

[tweeter13]

Thank you Midnightrider.  Now it's the tts system that's allowing you to change the parameters to fit each bike with its individual application with pipes mufflers air cleaner,  ect... 

To me it's a no brainier on which system I would use with all the help you can get on here if you need a little tweek here or there for one more horse power or torque if that's what I wanted to do. 

From what I have read here and on their web site it does take a little reading but don't seem hard to do.  IMHO.

But once I get the stage one in the next few months from fullsac I don't plan on messing with it much. 

Todd. 

[HDGearHead]

 ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  

That's false.  The TMAX with autotune IS a closed loop system.

The TMAX will also autotune to achieve and maintain the desired AFR while riding.  The maximum % of CLP offset (MAP) adjustment that will be made to the installed base map while riding is limited and controllable by the user (i.e. will not offset beyond a user set % offset limit, typically 10% per session map, 20% maximum map). 

During the initial tuning process, after having loaded a base map close to your build, you ride the bike (on the road or dyno) and let it autotune (it'll determine and automatically apply the required amount of offset to the chosen base map within limit).  If the required % of required CLP offset never exceeds the set maximum limits, you technically wouldn't have to update the base map to achieve the desired AFR. 

However, ideally you modify the base map until the amount of offset required to achieve the set AFR is minimal (0% to 5%).   When the base map is updated through the tuning software, the offsets applied while riding are incorporated into the new base map and then cleared (similar to resetting adaptive fuel).  On next ride, the new map becomes the baseline and new starting/0 point for the maximum allowable CLP offset limit.  You repeat this process until there is little or no autotuning offset being applied (allows a lot of room in either direction for autotune to correct if needed).

After the base map has been tuned so minimal offset is required to achieve the desired AFR, the TMAX will continue autotuning within the maximum CLP % limits to compensate for any changes in air density, fuel, etc. for any desired AFR value within the range of its Wideband O2 sensors.   The Delphi system does this using adaptive fuel when operating in closed loop mode within the limited range of its narrow band O2 sensors.  However the delphi system cannot compensate for conditions when operating in open loop outside of the narrow band O2 sensor range.

When it comes to autotuning the AFR to achieve and maintain a desired AFR, the TMAX does an excellent job.

However the TMAX does NOT auto-tune timing and has no knock control (no ION sensing like Delphi ECM).

The TMAX also does not determine what the ideal AFR and timing curves should be for your particular build/bike.  Unless the base map closely matches your bikes build, your taking a stab in the dark as to what they should be.  However, in this aspect, the TMAX is no different from the TTS or SEPST.  Without a Dyno, you have nothing to reference to help you know where you need to go with these.

Because of this, ideally the bike should still be tuned on a Dyno by a skilled TMAX/TTS/SEPST tuner to dial in the base map. 

The several TMAX base maps that I've played with on my softail were pretty conservative.  I'm guessing this was to prevent a condition that could cause engine damage.  However, my bike was very drivable after a short distance with all of the TMAX base maps that I've tried; idled great, no hesitation/flat spots, no knocking, ran cool, reasonable gas mileage (42-44) and pulled hard all the way to redline.  I was satisfied enough that I decided not to have it dyno tuned.  Because of this, I have no proof one way or another (outside of my butt dyno) that I'm making more power or how much I may have left on the table.   

Community support for the TMAX and the availability of knowledgeable skilled TMAX tuners are both limited.  I've personally received excellent support (base map and tuning questions) from Zippers for the TMAX although others have reported having the opposite experience. 

Many of the problems people have experienced with the TMAX can be attributed to not using dielectric grease on the ECM and O2 sensor connectors during installation (and TBW servo connector as well).  This is a problem shared with the Delphi system as well.

On the other hand, TTS support and tuner availability far exceed what is available for the TMAX. 

As to warranty, all of them (TTS, SEPST, PowerVision/Commander, TMAX, etc) can void the warranty.

I've used the TMAX w/Autotune, TMAX TBW w/Autotune, TTS and SEPST.  They all have pros and cons and any of them can provide a good tune.

Personally, my ideal ECM would be a combination of the Delphi system and the TMAX (wideband O2 with AFR Autotune) and incorporate a MAF sensor to eliminate the need for VE.


Just throwing in my two cents.

[Max Headflow]

 

Max

[Hilly13]

The thread title is TTS or Thundermax, given that, I would opt for TTS everytime, cannot see the point in throwing away a perfectly good ecm in favour of a lesser more expensive ecm, just my honest opinion.

[Max Headflow]

The thread title is TTS or Thundermax, given that, I would opt for TTS everytime, cannot see the point in throwing away a perfectly good ecm in favour of a lesser more expensive ecm, just my honest opinion.

You like sticking your finger in a fan also?? If planing on doing one build and not changing anything ever, TTS is probably the way to go.. You can get someone else to tune it.. If you like wasting time collecting data and massaging files only to find out that you really need to get the bike tuned on a Dyno.. Buy TTS.. If you are a masochist, buy TTS.. If you know how to tune a carb and ignition, Tmax is the way to go.. In fact it's easier to use and you don't get gas on your hands..

Max

[Hilly13]

That's your take mate not mine, my take is I like the TTS system and will keep using and recomending it, a few people I know have had tmax's and removed them, some still have them and like them but they are mild builds, my bike is in flux, always changing this or that and vtuning just got a bit easier for me, maybe its a case of fossils for fossils or horses for courses?

[Max Headflow]

Well,

I've done stage 1 to CCPs over 220psi  in a number of different builds and not had any issues.. The problem with TTS is that any mild change requires Vtune.. Tmax won't.. No need to Vtune.. The problem is that most believe that Tmax is a full auto tuner.. It's not.. The systems I have all came off bikes that the owner couldn't figure out tried a half dozen maps and gave up.  They worked fine for me.. Sounds like you ought to try a Tmax.
Max

[Max Headflow]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

[SBB]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

Being married to a TTS is like being married to a rich woman that owns a liqueur store and a Harley dealership.
I'm sure there are those that could screw up even a sweet arrangement like that.

 

SBB

[North Georgia Hawg]

Being married to a TTS is like being married to a rich woman that owns a liqueur store and a Harley dealership.
I'm sure there are those that could screw up even a sweet arrangement like that.

 

SBB

+1, CHIP!!! I noticed you didn't mention a few other... ummm... "attributes" of the woman tho... 

I think that the TTS MasterTune is the best flash tuner out there. It has more capabilities than the others, and Steve Cole and his team at TTS continue to improve it. Flash tuners are the right approach, I think. The Delphi ECM is a very capable device, and I would never want to replace it with a third party engine management system... I see no need to do that... especially when you lose the very important ion sensing for knock detection and timing retardation to avoid engine damage.

The point of tuning is to get the various tables in the base calibration dialed in closely, so the ECM doesn't need to make huge changes to the air-fuel mixture while running. The ECM will over time get the air-fuel values dialed in more closely as you ride - within limits based on the VE table values - and will continually save these "learned" correction values each time the bike is powered off. The closer the VE table values are to begin with, the less correction the ECM needs to apply while running. That's the point of the VTune process - to get the VE tables pretty close to ideal in the base cal.

There is a huge library of TTS calibration files to start from that have been set up by TTS for various types of builds, and the VTuning process is straightforward and pretty simple to do. The MasterTune enables adjustment of all of the important tables: main lambda, VE, timing, accel enrich, decel enlean, the very important but not well understood EGR, etc. And, it accommodates for the cams you are running... very important to get that correct before even bothering with the VTune process.

I disagree with the comment made about the TTS MasterTune not being able to accommodate for changes in the build. I've changed my build MANY times, and we've retuned the bike for each one fairly easily... doing low-RPM VTune runs first, then higher-RPM VTune runs - and adjusting the EGR, accel enrich, and decel enlean tables along the way.

For around $450, I don't think you can't buy a better tuning device than the TTS MasterTune.

Ken

[Midnight Rider]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?  It's merely an interface between the laptop and the ECM that allows communication and monitoring of systems while hooked up via cables to the data port on the bike.  The "marriage" simply means you can't use the "Dongle" to talk to another bike's ECM after it has interfaced with one ECM.

And you are correct in your analogy of the Tmax...old technology that does not have the capabilities of the Dephi system that comes stock on the bike.

But, if it works for you and you like the results, nothing else matters.  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.