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[Eagle Eye]

This inquiring mind wants to know if it is worth saving ten bucks on an oil change...

I've been reading the old (2009) threads about motor oil and have decided to purchase the Red Line product.  How is the regular 20/50 synthetic different than the motorcycle version, which sells for two bucks more? 

Somehow, I recall someone writing there is no real differece and they use the regular syn.  As an Engineer, I suspect that may not be true...am I right?  On the other hand, marketing sometimes takes a front seat to science and just putting a MC designation on the container might be a real profit maker.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/Red_Line_Oil/?r=lmos

[Twolanerider]

Perhaps it's worth considering the question from an entirely different perspective (that would sidestep yet another "my oil is better than your oil thread").  You write that you don't know if there's a difference.  Conversely you don't know if there's not.  And some internet chat room full of me, you and our 198 closest also-expert friends really isn't going to define a paradigm here.  So.....

Don't know for sure there's not a difference.  Cost two bucks a quart more.  So is ten bucks an oil change a couple times a year really worth worrying about?  Just in case there really is a difference?

[mjb765]

Perhaps it's worth considering the question from an entirely different perspective (that would sidestep yet another "my oil is better than your oil thread").  You write that you don't know if there's a difference.  Conversely you don't know if there's not.  And some internet chat room full of me, you and our 198 closest also-expert friends really isn't going to define a paradigm here.  So.....

Don't know for sure there's not a difference.  Cost two bucks a quart more.  So is ten bucks an oil change a couple times a year really worth worrying about?  Just in case there really is a difference?

And there I was looking forward to reading 20 pages of an oil discussion thread and you ruined it!!!

[Talon]

Not again!!
    

Small amount of anti wear agents that are above the limits for auto oils because of cats, but not much more. Now with motorcycles coming with cats, I wonder if they are to be used in bikes with cats?

One other thing, some bikes with wet clutches, use oil with less friction modifiers.

[Ghost Rider]

Not again!!
    

Small amount of anti wear agents that are above the limits for auto oils because of cats, but not much more. Now with motorcycles coming with cats, I wonder if they are to be used in bikes with cats?

Are these "cats" the ones Don keeps finding under his transmission?   

[grc]

Here's some history on a couple of the other Redline products that Harley riders started using extensively and talking up on various internet forums.  Shockproof Heavy in the trans and their MTL in the primary became very popular, and then Presto Chango, they came out with a new bottle for each with a different name (V-Twin Trans Oil and V-Twin Primary Oil) and gave them a two dollar increase in price over the identical fluids in the old bottles with the old name.  They eventually had to admit they were the exact same fluids, and I believe you can still find that info on their website.

So far I have not seen any such admission from them about the 20W50 automotive motor oil versus the 20W50 motorcycle motor oil, and unless someone wants to invest some cash to have a sample of each analyzed in a laboratory I guess we will never really know for sure.  But their previous subterfuge with the other fluids does make one think.

Odds are that a motorcycle specific oil will have a different additive package to address things like wet clutch compatibility.  That doesn't really apply with a Harley Big Twin however, since the engine and clutch do not share the same oil supply like many other brands or even other Harley models.  If you can dig up actual spec and data sheets on both products you might have a better idea about how close a match they really are.


Jerry

[GregKhougaz]

According to Mobil:  Motorcycle and automotive oils differ in two areas.  The first concerns common sumps, or the use of motor oil, to lubricate and cool the transmission. ...  In a motorcycle, where the transmission may be lubricated by the engine oil, an engine oil that does not have the same level of friction modification (for fuel economy) of a typical passenger car engine oil will provide better transmission performance in terms of transmission lock-up and slippage. So motorcycle engine oil does not contain the friction modifiers of a passenger car engine oil. The second area of concern for motorcycle engine oils is that they tend to shear (breakdown viscosity) more quickly than a typical passenger car. Mobil 1 motorcycle oils are designed to provide exceptional protection against viscosity loss.

Similar claim by Husqvarna which also says:  Motorcycles require very little and/or no friction modifiers to help improve clutch friction and to prevent clutch slippage. But to make up for this lack of friction modifiers, motorcycle oils use higher levels of anti-wear additives such as ZDDP, also known as phosphorous, to limit engine friction and wear. Since motorcycle oil has extra anti-wear additives and is lubricating so much more than automotive oil, you can expect to pay anywhere from $9 to $15 a quart.

However, a Google search indicates that independent testers can find no appreciable difference.  Here is an article from Motorcycle Consumer News posted in Ducatimeccanica.com.  Which does not support the use of motorcycle specific oils but does support the use of synthetics....   

[LC110]

They do use slightly differnet additive packs, either one will work just fine in our V-Twins.
If you have any questions just give them a call. I have found them to be more than helpful in answering questions.

[Boatman]

Redline 20W50 vs their VTwin 20W50-I do not know this for a fact but I believe the VTwin 20W50 to have more zinc and phosphorus which I believe air cooled motors like more of.

MTL and Shockproof vs their VTwin counterparts-Redline rep's told me that they are the same.

FWIW

I use regualr MTL in the primary, regualar Heavy Shockproof in the tranny, and VTwin 20W50 Redline in the motor.  Just buy them by the case as I change all three every 5,000 miles.

[Eagle Eye]

I appreciate your replies and good humor too.  Getting to know the nuances of these bikes is a great challenge and interesting.  Thanks for helping.

[mark]

Shockproof Heavy in the trans and their MTL in the primary became very popular, and then Presto Chango, they came out with a new bottle for each with a different name (V-Twin Trans Oil and V-Twin Primary Oil) and gave them a two dollar increase in price over the identical fluids in the old bottles with the old name.  They eventually had to admit they were the exact same fluids, and I believe you can still find that info on their website.

I just checked Redline's website...the V-Twin Transmission Fluid and the Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil are both 13.95/qt.  The V-Twin Primary Fluid and Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) were 13.95 and 13.49 respectively.  If I'm looking at the right products, it appears they've addressed the price disparity. 

[grc]

I just checked Redline's website...the V-Twin Transmission Fluid and the Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil are both 13.95/qt.  The V-Twin Primary Fluid and Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) were 13.95 and 13.49 respectively.  If I'm looking at the right products, it appears they've addressed the price disparity. 

Yes they eventually did.  Unfortunately it was addressed by raising the price of the automotive products, not reducing the inflated price of the motorcycle variants.  Such is life since greed became a good thing.


Jerry

[SERK3]

Perhaps it's worth considering the question from an entirely different perspective (that would sidestep yet another "my oil is better than your oil thread").  You write that you don't know if there's a difference.  Conversely you don't know if there's not.  And some internet chat room full of me, you and our 198 closest also-expert friends really isn't going to define a paradigm here.  So.....

Don't know for sure there's not a difference.  Cost two bucks a quart more.  So is ten bucks an oil change a couple times a year really worth worrying about?  Just in case there really is a difference?

X2

[Eagle Eye]

However, a Google search indicates that independent testers can find no appreciable difference.  Here is an article from Motorcycle Consumer News posted in Ducatimeccanica.com.  Which does not support the use of motorcycle specific oils but does support the use of synthetics....   

Thanks Greg, this helps a lot.
Attachment below:
Figure II Relative Viscosity Retention (as a percentage of initial viscosity retained after normal use in the same motorcycle) clearly shows Mobile 1 is superior to the others by a long shot.  Goldwing riders swear by it, but also use the Rotela Diesel oil. The main difference is the wet sump transmission sharing oil with the engine in the Wing.  That should give the Harley a bit of an advantage using the Mobile 1, since the transmission uses it's own lubricant. 

I've not seen this kind of test data in the past, so it helps erase some of the suspicions we've been paying premium prices for oil designated for use in a MC.  They're not suspicions anymore.

Now to find that  Mobile 1 at the best price...


 
 
 

[GregKhougaz]

Eagleye, 

       I use Mobil in my Titan Gecko, 112" S&S.  But I use Amsoil in the SERG (20-50 in the Crank case and primary and the gear lube in the tranny).  You might want to Google the "Amsoil White Paper" comparing various oils or just see their website.  One of my buddies is a dealer so I get a small discount.  I'm sure either is fine.  Red Line too.  Good luck! 

GK